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~Princess Luna

X
Werewolf
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5 years ago
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PsychoShy said:
most importantly, Rarity shows some form of returning his affection.

Somepony on TVTropes noted that there are a number of ways to interpret Rarity's actions, and all of them are heart-melting.

My only real complaint is that another trend has been brought to my attention by happening thrice. For the third time, Zecora has had an extensive knowledge on something Twilight had no clue about. And this one was sort of shocking; Twilight never once paused to think, "hey, I essentially own a dragon now; maybe I should read about their life cycle!" I understand they're trying to make Zecora look smart on all things natural, but Twilight's beginning to look like the idiot that "forgot" to study for the test by comparison.

This is a good point. I have no problem with Zecora being a wise sage who knows strange and mysterious things, but this particular one kinda makes Twilight look dumb. In fairness, there was no particular reason for Twilight to know about parasprites or cutie pox.

Although it does occur to me that nopony seems to know much about dragons. Fluttershy's reaction when Spike spoke was "He can talk!" as if she had been expecting him to be a mute animal like Angel Bunny. Note also that the other ponies literally dragged Fluttershy along in Dragonshy, on the theory that her rapport with animals would help them convince the dragon to leave. This indicates that ponies - at least Ponyville ponies - knew little of dragons, and view them as animals rather than sentient creatures.

Still, it would have been nice if Twilight had had a line like "I thought that didn't happen with land dragons," or "but Spike's only a baby! He shouldn't be maturing for another hundred years." Something to indicate that, yes, she's done at least some research on her assistant's species.

Slops
Contributor
5 years ago
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Perhaps she isn't as knowledgeable as many seem to think she is?
Also a possibility is that pony society is extremely insular and hardly ever look to anything outside their cities. Hence why they need to go to the Zebra who actually does live in the "wild" (the everfree Forest is as wild as Equestria seems to get, though places like Foggy Bottom Bog, Buffalo Lands and the mountain the dragon had a lair on in Dragonshy are likely far beyond the ponies ability to manage and may also count) to find out these things.
I mean even Celestia didn't know about the parasprites. Or she's just really forgetful. She didn't remind her student about Spike's whole puberty thing either.

As far as the new episode goes, am I the only one seeing a caste society with the earth ponies blatantly oppressed at the bottom in that history lesson?
The Pegassi had the army (warrior caste?) and likely do the grunt work and the fighting for their rulers.
The Unicorns seemed to be the aristocrats and magicians (basically like priests controlling education and distribution of knowledge like the Catholic Church did in europe) and actually had an royal person in charge (the only one of the three "leaders" who had a title, the Commander Hurricane had a rank and Chancellor are usually appointed by the head of state). So they're basically the ruling caste? This would fit with the only other non alicorn royal in the show we've seen being Blueblood, another unicorn...
This would also explain the lack of Earth Pony guardsmen in the Royal Guard and why the Unicorn Guards mostly hang around Canterlot (they're basically officers and/or a praetorian guard Equivalent) while the Pegasus guards go around and handle normal day to day tasks (the army's grunt work).

Also, they never mentioned any ancient enemies, but why did pre-Equestrian society need a large percentage of it's population trained for war (the Pegasus warrior caste basically).


Oh, my mistake. I was counting the Poison Joke as one of them; mark that up to four times.
---
Today's episode was too good to wait for; I decided to sit down and watch it on YouTube instead of waiting.

Looks like a really informational episode to me. I mean, have we not needed knowledge of Equestrian History for our debates for a very long time?
> Confirmed: Starswirl the Bearded was from the Old World, and he did have an apprentice
> Confirmed: Celestia and Luna are not the only ones capable of controlling day and night
> Confirmed: Earth ponies are not only the best at growing crops, but the only ponies even capable of doing so
> New Content: Windigoes. I could guess there might be some creature that feeds off hatred, but I never expected it would be so...supernatural. Never once has "cold-hearted" been taken so literally.

Of course, this episode is not without holes that I sincerely hope that can be filled in. There's still the matter of just where alicorns came from and Discord--yes, Discord has a key role in this. And I quote: "Before Luna and I stood up to him, he had Equestria in a terrible reign of chaos..." I dunno about you, but the end scene of the play looked pretty not-chaotic to me. These would be relatively easy to explain, but when are they going to?

Even when she's acting, Twilight winds up being the one to carry all the weight. Shocker. On a slightly related note, Canterlot's theater has some great special effects artists. I want to see all the techies that made this production possible.

And that's how Equestria was made! ...No, really, it was.

Slops
Contributor
5 years ago
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The special effects would obviously be handled by Unicorn illusionists.

Also, for situation in the cave being non chaotic, what the show showed us was a reproduction, not how it did go down.
The cave would have had to have been bigger, because if those 3 "tribes" where the ancestors of Equestria you would have had hundreds if not thousands in each tribe (the population of a small country, no?).
Just take a situation where thousands of angry, starved, tired and frightened ponies are stuck in one buck cave or labyrinth of caves, bickering amongst themselves.
That's going to be pretty tense situation, and once someone snaps and throws a punch, it's going to be a cross between a riot and a small battle. With that many ponies fighting and/or fleeing the fighting, you're going to have a lot of dead and injured ponies on your hoofs too. Now through a blizzard and the resulting panic that would create in as well. Still think that situation isn't chaotic?

Also, anypony notice how the old leaders where constantly bickering?
These would have been the political leaders of the ponies before the alicorns assumed power and they knew starswirl the bearded, who Luna knew.
Could these have been the last leaders before the Alicorns took power?
If so, it makes puts portrayal as bickering and incompetent into a knew light. Could their portrayal be the result of historical revisionism used to justify the Alicorns hijacking Equestrian society?

Lastly, Windigo = Wendigo. Add another entry from the D&D Monstrous Manual. Haven't been as many as in Season 1 so far...


I do like the look at Pony Prehistory. The two magical tribes treating the Earth ponies like serfs seemed logical.

I did expect to see Celestia show up, with the allicorn combination of all three races. Still, it was good to see the ponies decide to cooperate before the Princess showed up to rule them.

This will rank as one of my fav episodes, simply because it shows a bit of history. Interesting departure from the usual fare.

edit to add, Spike was a great narrator.

Werewolf
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5 years ago
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Slops said:
As far as the new episode goes, am I the only one seeing a caste society with the earth ponies blatantly oppressed at the bottom in that history lesson?

That was the impression I got.

Also, they never mentioned any ancient enemies, but why did pre-Equestrian society need a large percentage of it's population trained for war (the Pegasus warrior caste basically).

There are dragons, hydras, Ursas, cockatrices, manticores, and diamond dogs running around out there, as well as Celestia knows what else. They could also have fought with zebras, buffalo tribes, and as-yet-unknown hoofed mammals of other species (deer, yak, whatever). Also, since Equestria seems to be a country, there's no reason there couldn't be other countries of ponies.

PsychoShy said:
> Confirmed: Celestia and Luna are not the only ones capable of controlling day and night

Yeah . . . that was kind of a shocker to me. Though it does explain how the world got along before the Sisters rose to power.

Of course, this episode is not without holes that I sincerely hope that can be filled in. There's still the matter of just where alicorns came from

My theory is that they somehow arose from unicorns, since they're referred to as "winged unicorns" in the first episode. This also plays into my theory that Twilight is a proto-alicorn, and will complete the trio of Day, Night and Twilight.

and Discord--yes, Discord has a key role in this. And I quote: "Before Luna and I stood up to him, he had Equestria in a terrible reign of chaos..." I dunno about you, but the end scene of the play looked pretty not-chaotic to me. These would be relatively easy to explain, but when are they going to?

Slops said:
words

Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding of the MLP historical timeline was this:

  • Equestria founded.
  • Discord rules in a state of constant chaos.
  • The Sisters rise up and overthrow him.
  • NMM affair.
  • NMM's thousand-year banishment.
  • Present day.

There's no real indication of how much time passed between Equestria's founding and the Sisters overthrowing Discord. Presumably, Discord seized power some time after the founding, ruled for a while, and then was taken down.

Could these have been the last leaders before the Alicorns took power?
If so, it makes puts portrayal as bickering and incompetent into a knew light. Could their portrayal be the result of historical revisionism used to justify the Alicorns hijacking Equestrian society?

Is it theoretically possible? Yes.
Do I subscribe to this theory? No.

Lastly, Windigo = Wendigo. Add another entry from the D&D Monstrous Manual. Haven't been as many as in Season 1 so far...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo

Wendigos/windigos predate D&D by a couple of thousand years.


Slops, when I said "end scene," I was referring to when they were naming Equestria. The scene in the cave *was* quite chaotic.

Oh, and if you're implying that the Princesses' arrival was a brutal conquest...man, I don't want to have to bring Sun Tyrant Celestia into this topic...

And Werewolf, if Twilight does become an alicorn by the end of the series, it will be the quintessence of the developers focusing on her way too much, and I shall despise it to no end.

Slops
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5 years ago
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It's not just the Wendigo's that predate the D&D manual, so does the Hydra, Manticore, Griffins and the Cockatrice. They are however all from different mythologies in one big weird blend, of a style the D&D pioneered. And they all have entries in the actual Monstrous Manuals I believe...
And if you allow for "Direbear=Ursa" and "Diamond Dog = Bugbear/Gnoll" comparisons so does all the other monstrous races we see in the show.
My point is really that the more of these things they introduce, the more the setting of the show seems like a D&D setting.

I'm not commenting on how the princesses came to power, that could have been anything from the "brutal conquest", a coup de tat, popular uprising or simply them being the legal heirs to the old princess when she died. What I'm trying to point out is that the way the old rulers where presented, one sided negative semi-villainous types basically, reeks of historical revisionism. All the more blatant because it seems to coincide with the princesses rise to power.
That the princesses aren't actually required for the survival of the country just kind of underlines this, as it makes their current position as "nigh goddesses" who rule through divine right look some what contrived and would explain why they'd resort to historical revisionism to justify their rule by making their predecessors look at incompetent and uncaring for their subjects plight as possible.

Werewolf
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5 years ago
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PsychoShy said:
And Werewolf, if Twilight does become an alicorn by the end of the series, it will be the quintessence of the developers focusing on her way too much, and I shall despise it to no end.

I seriously doubt that will happen. Maybe if the show went the way Lauren Faust originally wanted, more "season-long adventure arcs" and less "slice of life comedy," it would have happened. Now, it would simply be too dramatic a change, and would make Twilight too different from her friends, for it to work.

I do think there's some significant evidence for it, though, and it amuses me to follow it.

Slops said:
It's not just the Wendigo's. . . <snip>

Ah. That's true.

I'm not commenting on how the princesses came to power <snip>

While it's possible, to be quite honest I don't have the interest to debate Celestia and Luna's theoretical historical revisionism. I think it's highly unlikely given the context of the show, and given that the Sisters are clearly intended to come across as benevolent rulers, but alternate interpretations can be found. I just don't care about this one.


Hey, guys, remember this topic?

No new discussion and it's Wednesday...I guess I'll have to jump in.

I suppose that not a *whole* lot happened in this episode, but we did get another history lesson. I never would have guessed Ponyville was such a new town (Relatively speaking, of course). Heck, come to think of it, maybe that's why Celestia going there for the Summer-Sun Celebration was such a big deal. I never would have guessed that the Apple Family were the first settlers there...on a slightly related note, those depictions of young Granny Smith turned out to be really accurate.

On the note of the flashback-story-thing, you can see Silver Spoon applauding after it's over. This certainly helps my pet theory that she's actually very nice, but remains as DT's groupie to avoid her hate being aimed at her. Seriously, Silver Spoon is, in my opinion, amongst Trixie in characters that could totally use an episode to themselves.

Well, I knew Diamond Tiara's father was probably Filthy Rich, but I never would've taken it this...literally. Sort of reminds me of Seto Kaiba, to be honest...not really such a mean guy, but his company comes first.

Oh, yes, and Apple Bloom's not terrible at everything. It was probably just a good way to tie off the episode, but she certainly had fun helping her grandmother. Poor filly will soon be torn between her love for building and her family name.

And the most shocking development of all--Big McIntosh can form full sentences.

Werewolf
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5 years ago
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PsychoShy said:
On the note of the flashback-story-thing, you can see Silver Spoon applauding after it's over.

She was actually the first to applaud, and that was a very nice touch. Mind you, I don't think I would have believed it from Diamond Tiara, but it helps emphasize the whole "realistic, rounded characters" concept that makes FiM so great.

Sort of reminds me of Seto Kaiba, to be honest...not really such a mean guy, but his company comes first.

Another example of this. I like that Filthy ("I prefer Rich") turned out to be a decent sort, and not just an earth pony version of Blueblood.

Oh, yes, and Apple Bloom's not terrible at everything. It was probably just a good way to tie off the episode, but she certainly had fun helping her grandmother.

Applebloom is actually pretty talented, it's just that none of her talents have earned her a cutie mark yet. She's good at building/repairing stuff, she's a good cook/jam-maker, she's helped Zecora find herbs and such, and she seems generally brave and sensible.

Poor filly will soon be torn between her love for building and her family name.

Do you have any idea how valuable somepony who can fix stuff up will be on a farm?

And the most shocking development of all--Big McIntosh can form full sentences.

He actually did this once before, in S1E4: Applebuck Season.

I'd like to add that the timber wolves are awesomely creepy, and I want to see them again. I like that they're scared off by loud noises . . . it reinforces that they're not demonic monsters, just weird animals.

We have a map! It's simple, but it at least shows relative directions and distances.

And finally, more Cheerilee. Cheerilee is awesome.

Werewolf
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5 years ago
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And a Pinkie episode!

  • Interspecies families are now canon. This is awesome, because it brings Derpy/Dinky one step closer to canon as well.
  • Who was that impostor and where was Rarity? Seriously the Pony of Generosity casually blowing off somepony who needs her help? What? No.
  • White Pinkie = Surprise reference? I think so.
  • Horror movie references? In MY MLP? . . .Okay, sure. It works.
  • No Derpy sighting this episode, unless I missed it. I am okay with this. Derpy is special, and not having her in every single episode keeps her special.
  • Pinkie Pie - easily the most childlike of the Mane Six - trying to be responsible was well done, I thought. Again, FiM gives us nuanced, multidimensional characters as opposed to stereotypes.
  • The Cakes' spawn are freakishly talented.

All in all, I thought this was a decent episode . . . not great, but fun. I give it a B-.


Werewolf said:

  • Who was that impostor and where was Rarity? Seriously the Pony of Generosity casually blowing off somepony who needs her help? What? No.

So much jibbajabba...I'd just like to cite that Rarity has done this on SEVERAL occasions. "Generosity" means she gives things willingly, doesn't mean she has to do it ALL The time. Plus, baby sitting is extremely messy when their that young, and do you honestly think rarity'd be willing to go NEAR a diaper, much less change one?


Werewolf said:
And a Pinkie episode!

  • Interspecies families are now canon. This is awesome, because it brings Derpy/Dinky one step closer to canon as well.
  • Who was that impostor and where was Rarity? Seriously the Pony of Generosity casually blowing off somepony who needs her help? What? No.
  • White Pinkie = Surprise reference? I think so.
  • Horror movie references? In MY MLP? . . .Okay, sure. It works.
  • No Derpy sighting this episode, unless I missed it. I am okay with this. Derpy is special, and not having her in every single episode keeps her special.
  • Pinkie Pie - easily the most childlike of the Mane Six - trying to be responsible was well done, I thought. Again, FiM gives us nuanced, multidimensional characters as opposed to stereotypes.
  • The Cakes' spawn are freakishly talented.

All in all, I thought this was a decent episode . . . not great, but fun. I give it a B-.

Well, there was a grey baby with blonde hair in the beginning of the show. It could be a coincidence or it could be a hidden Derpy.

Slops
Contributor
5 years ago
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TerraFirma said:
Plus, baby sitting is extremely messy when their that young, and do you honestly think rarity'd be willing to go NEAR a diaper, much less change one?

I don't know. It'd be much cleaner to use telekinesis than your mouth if you have to change a diaper. Also less chance of leaving a nutty taste in your mouth for the rest of the day...

Werewolf
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5 years ago
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TerraFirma said:
"Generosity" means she gives things willingly, doesn't mean she has to do it ALL The time.

True, but I found it rather unbelievable for Rarity to say "Oh, you need help? Nah, can't be bothered. By now!"

Plus, baby sitting is extremely messy when their that young, and do you honestly think rarity'd be willing to go NEAR a diaper, much less change one?

The pony who immersed herself in filthy mud and participated in several rough-and-tumble contests of the sort she positively hates, all to make her little sister happy?

The pony who sacrificed her reputation as a dressmaker to give her friends what the said they wanted, and spoke nary a word of blame?

The pony who made it abundantly clear that she hated rain and refused to get out from under her umbrella . . . then silently levitated her umbrella over to Twilight mere seconds later without a word?

Yes, I think Rarity would change diapers without a word of complaint.


Werewolf said:
True, but I found it rather unbelievable for Rarity to say "Oh, you need help? Nah, can't be bothered. By now!"

The pony who immersed herself in filthy mud and participated in several rough-and-tumble contests of the sort she positively hates, all to make her little sister happy?

The pony who sacrificed her reputation as a dressmaker to give her friends what the said they wanted, and spoke nary a word of blame?

The pony who made it abundantly clear that she hated rain and refused to get out from under her umbrella . . . then silently levitated her umbrella over to Twilight mere seconds later without a word?

Yes, I think Rarity would change diapers without a word of complaint.

Lets address these in order.

The pony who immersed her self in filthy mud, for a sibling whos HEART SHE BROKE PRIOR. Kind of had a pretty good reason for that one besides "Out of the kindness of her heart"

"The pony who sacrificed her reputation as a dressmaker" She didn't "sacrifice" Anything, she actually was extraordinarily embarrassed in both Art of the Dress {WHEN SHE WENT COMPLETE EMO, And the others had to FIX her}, and in Sweet and Elite, until the fancy pants pony won over the crowd and it became no longer a total embarrassment

Wasn't that particular scene in "The Ticket Master", in which she was "trying" to get twilights second ticket to go to the Grand Galloping Gala?

Yeah, when you say she did these things out of context she looks "Generous" then you put them in the context of each individual show, and its "Less" generous.

As a subnote, if you "Really" wanted to showcase Raritys Generosity. Your best bets would be in episodes

season 1, episode 19 "A dog and pony show" when rarity gives spike the largest gem they find as thanks for helping her. {Keeping in mind Spike did all the digging and actual hard work}

and again in season 1

Season 1, Episode 24; "Owl's well that ends well." When she gives him the gem studded bow tie.

Werewolf
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5 years ago
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TerraFirma said:
The pony who immersed her self in filthy mud, for a sibling whos HEART SHE BROKE PRIOR. Kind of had a pretty good reason for that one besides "Out of the kindness of her heart"

Yes. She made amends in a pretty spectacular way.

"The pony who sacrificed her reputation as a dressmaker" She didn't "sacrifice" Anything, she actually was extraordinarily embarrassed in both Art of the Dress {WHEN SHE WENT COMPLETE EMO, And the others had to FIX her}, and in Sweet and Elite, until the fancy pants pony won over the crowd and it became no longer a total embarrassment

In Suited for Success, she made the dresses the way the other ponies wanted them, despite knowing they were terrible. She then put them in a fashion show for Hoity Toity, thus assassinating her reputation. Was she embarrassed? Yes. Was she dramatic? Yes. Did she blame the others for any of this? No. Never. Not once, despite it largely being their fault.

And in Sweet and Elite she tried to split herself between her friends and her high-society acquaintances . . . but when it came down to it, she chose her friends. Again, had Fancy Pants not turned out to be a decent sort (which she had no way of being sure of), this could have undone everything she'd been trying to accomplish for the previous week.

Wasn't that particular scene in "The Ticket Master", in which she was "trying" to get twilights second ticket to go to the Grand Galloping Gala?

No, the scene I'm referring to was in S2E1, "Return of Harmony part 1." Rarity showed up at AJ's farm and offered to do anything she could to help, as long as it didn't involve getting muddy, or wet, or getting out from under her umbrella. Seconds later, Twilight showed up without an umbrella . . . and Rarity's floated silently over to shelter Twi.

Yeah, when you say she did these things out of context she looks "Generous" then you put them in the context of each individual show, and its "Less" generous.

I disagree. She's a nuanced character, with flaws and virtues. The fact that she has her own goals and desires just makes her acts of generosity better, IMO.

As a subnote, if you "Really" wanted to showcase Raritys Generosity. Your best bets would be in episodes

season 1, episode 19 "A dog and pony show" when rarity gives spike the largest gem they find as thanks for helping her. {Keeping in mind Spike did all the digging and actual hard work}

I actually found this episode to be a pretty terrible example of Rarity's generosity.

and again in season 1

Season 1, Episode 24; "Owl's well that ends well." When she gives him the gem studded bow tie.

This is a good one I'd forgotten.

And let's also remember:

Suited for Success: "I know! I'll make you all amazing dresses, just because I can!"

Sonic Rainboom: "Dash seemed nervous. We have to be there to support her. Here, Twilight, try that potentially dangerous spell on me." (yes, I know she went kind of nuts at the end, but that was still a generous thing to do).

Secret of My Excess: "Here everypony, I made you some awesome cloaks/capes! Enjoy!"

I've no problem with Rarity not being able to babysit; I just think it could have been handled better. "I'd love to help you, but I have a rush order to fill and I'm absolutely swamped!" would have made a lot more sense to me.


Werewolf said:
Yes. She made amends in a pretty spectacular way.

In Suited for Success, she made the dresses the way the other ponies wanted them, despite knowing they were terrible. She then put them in a fashion show for Hoity Toity, thus assassinating her reputation. Was she embarrassed? Yes. Was she dramatic? Yes. Did she blame the others for any of this? No. Never. Not once, despite it largely being their fault.

And in Sweet and Elite she tried to split herself between her friends and her high-society acquaintances . . . but when it came down to it, she chose her friends. Again, had Fancy Pants not turned out to be a decent sort (which she had no way of being sure of), this could have undone everything she'd been trying to accomplish for the previous week.

No, the scene I'm referring to was in S2E1, "Return of Harmony part 1." Rarity showed up at AJ's farm and offered to do anything she could to help, as long as it didn't involve getting muddy, or wet, or getting out from under her umbrella. Seconds later, Twilight showed up without an umbrella . . . and Rarity's floated silently over to shelter Twi.

I disagree. She's a nuanced character, with flaws and virtues. The fact that she has her own goals and desires just makes her acts of generosity better, IMO.

I actually found this episode to be a pretty terrible example of Rarity's generosity.

This is a good one I'd forgotten.

And let's also remember:

Suited for Success: "I know! I'll make you all amazing dresses, just because I can!"

Sonic Rainboom: "Dash seemed nervous. We have to be there to support her. Here, Twilight, try that potentially dangerous spell on me." (yes, I know she went kind of nuts at the end, but that was still a generous thing to do).

Secret of My Excess: "Here everypony, I made you some awesome cloaks/capes! Enjoy!"

I've no problem with Rarity not being able to babysit; I just think it could have been handled better. "I'd love to help you, but I have a rush order to fill and I'm absolutely swamped!" would have made a lot more sense to me.

Well, when you really stop to think about it. When you look at ALL your examples, only one of them involved her actually getting messy to help someone after not breaking it herself, well that one and in episode 8. Otherwise most of them involved her being relatively clean.

Slops
Contributor
5 years ago
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The problem seems to be that Rarity unlike most of others of the mane 6 doesn't have a personality largely defined by either her cutiemark ( Twilight and her studies on magic, Pinkie Pie and her parties, Rainbow Dash and her speed, Applejack and her family farm) or her element (Fluttershy's kindness, Pinkie Pie's need to make others smile and laugh), but rather makes her talents (prospecting for gems) and her element (generosity) be parts of a deeper and more complex and mature personality than any of the other ponies of the mane 6 have.

Thus, while she is generous, it is not her defining or most noticeable character trait.
Neither is her special talent what defines her. Her most recognisable character trait is that she's a refined artist, not that she's a good gem miner.
She is also the most mature of the mane 6 (the only one to notice the colts) and by far the most capable of getting by on her own (she runs her own shop, she was quick to defend herself from the Manticore when it attacked, she is not only an artist but good enough to attract attention and recognition by experts in her field (Hoity Toity and Sapphire Shores) and she manipulated the Diamond Dogs into not only letting her go, but to give her all the gems they had in spite of being at their mercy).
She also knows Kung Fu.
In short, she has the most character depth of any of the mane 6.

Hence, while she gives possibly more things than anyone else on the show and is always ready to help her friends when they need her, it is not a defining part of her personality that is the first noticed when you meet her the way Fluttershy's "kind-to-the-point-of-being-spineless" or Pinkie Pie's obsessive compulsive need to make others smile all the time.

I think the real question is not "is Rarity generous" but rather "does she know the Cakes well enough to want to clean up their babies poop".
Rarity is never shown to be as close to Pinkie as she is to Twilight or Fluttershy so there's little reason to think she would know the Cakes much more than as distant neighbours or "Those ponies pinkie pie lives with".


Best episode ever

Werewolf
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5 years ago
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DERPY HOOVES IS CANON.

That is all.

.

.

.

.

Actually, no, that's not all, but it's pretty damn cool.

  • Dinky with Carrot Top? A nod to fanon? I think so.
  • I Love Lucy reference? Ye gods, how many of you young'uns caught that?
  • Canon proof that AJ is not a fruit bigot. Thank you.
  • Angry Pinkie is kind of scary.
Slops
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5 years ago
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  • Werewolf said:
    • Canon proof that AJ is not a fruit bigot. Thank you.

    Not a fruit bigot?
    She was so ashamed at the whole thing she didn't want anyone in ponyville to know she had to work with cherries to get the money.

    Werewolf
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    5 years ago
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    Slops said:
    Not a fruit bigot?
    She was so ashamed at the whole thing she didn't want anyone in ponyville to know she had to work with cherries to get the money.

    She didn't want anypony to know she didn't win any blue ribbons. Not the same thing at all.


    I thought the whole reason she was ashamed to come back was because she said she'd bring back money, but she didn't win any.
    ---
    I watched last week's new episode rather late, so a couple late thoughts on that:

    Probably one thing that wasn't mentioned was that--Yay, Nurse Redheart got another line. I never paid attention to her before, but I really like her voice.

    And darn, Pound and Pumpkin are real child prodigies. You could justify it as random and uncontrollable if it were just the magic and flight, but it wasn't just that--they were smart enough to read Pinkie's emotions. When she started bawling herself toward the end of the episode (Take note, villains; Pinkie doesn't cope well with a lot of stress), they were smart enough to dump flour on themselves in order to cheer her up. At a month old apiece, this is pretty incredible--although these characters were probably one-hit wonders, I'd love to see more elaboration on them later.
    ---
    AND NOW BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY PONY-GRAMMED SCHEDULE.

    Well, darn, I guess I *have* to start calling her "Derpy" now. It seems that for now, her only purpose is still comic relief--I must say, I prefer BaldDumboRat, but I suppose they did a nice job. That is, if her only purpose is and always shall be comic relief.

    So is this "Rodeo Competition" supposed to be like the Olympics or something? It's so painfully generic to be depressed from a second-place medal.

    I was disappointed when they didn't do the rhyme for the "Pinkie Pie Promise," but what came afterwards made up for it. She fought against Applejack so hard, just for an apology...Pinkie would be a really scary character if you tilted her frame ever-so-slightly.

    I'm not sure how to feel about Applejack harvesting cherries, though. Personally, I'd be a little frustrated, having to kick the trees so softly after bucking them all my life. She *could* have just found it the lesser of two evils...but then again, maybe not.

    Slops
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    5 years ago
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    To summarise the new episodes highlights:

    Magic powered machinery and steam powered cars confirmed.
    This does raise some questions about what passes for a tank in Equestria though. Steampunk tanks at best and if powered by a steam engine, likely slower than even WWI standards...

    The Cider. Either the show is trying to imply massive use of alcoholic beverages or someone should mention the difference between what americans call Hard Cider (and the rest of the world calls regular alcoholic Cider) and what they call Cider (unstrained applejuice).

    Also, since the apple family and the Flimflam Brothers are competing over who gets to be Ponyvilles sole Cider Supplier, we can assume that Equestria isn't exactly running on a free economy.
    Only explanation for how they can be competing for "the exclusive right to sell Cider in Ponyville", as approved by the Mayor, so it's not just a gentlecolts agreement between the Apple Clan and the Flimflams.

    Anyone else noticed how the only reason there's a cider shortage in Ponyville is because the Apple Clan is keeping supply artificially low. They even refused to cooperate with the brothers without so much as trying to negotiate terms to their favour.
    During the competition the Apple family is allowed to not only compete 4 against 2, they're allowed to bring in 5 extra helpers. Once they have 9 people to work the farm they can finally outproduce the Cider Squeezer, forcing the brother to lower their QA standard.
    The apple family's cheating won them the day, in other words.

    And while I'm on the subject, why is the Applefarm suddenly going out of business? Don't they still have a local monopoly on the apple supply? Wouldn't the brothers have to buy all the apples they used to make cider from Sweet Apple Acres? So the only reason they are in a bind is because they are too stupid to run a halfway decent business?
    And what about all the other things they sell? Like the extremely popular Zap Apple Jam that made Filthy Rich so, well, filthy rich?
    How can they have trouble making ends meet, when their products are all selling like hotcakes?
    It was also only blind luck that insured that the brothers where run out of town before the apple clan had left. If the first cask the Flimflam's had opened after the competition had been one of the ones they made before dropping their standards, they'd have been selling Cider hours before anyone noticed the bad half of the batch.
    So basically, there's only a problem because the Apple Clan are too dumb to run a business and they are only bailed out by cheating and blind luck.

    And the dirty cheating redneck then brags about not learning anything.
    Not any aesop the show can get away with saying out loud anyway...
    And somehow, I'm still one of the only ones around who doesn't like the Apple Clan.

    Lastly, the Cider song is definitely the best song so far. First song to beat Winter Wrap Up IMHO.


    Slops said:
    To summarise the new episodes highlights:

    Whole bunches of new unnamed ponies to draw.
    Dr Whooves plays with Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Stuff.
    Applejack writes Celestia like a BAWSS.

    Werewolf
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    5 years ago
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    Slops said:
    Only explanation for how they can be competing for "the exclusive right to sell Cider in Ponyville", as approved by the Mayor, so it's not just a gentlecolts agreement between the Apple Clan and the Flimflams.

    That was my understanding. Also, I can't see the Spirit of Honesty and her family welching on an agreement, even if it wasn't in their favor.

    Anyone else noticed how the only reason there's a cider shortage in Ponyville is because the Apple Clan is keeping supply artificially low.

    No, they sold as much cider as they were able to make in a day, at their high standards of quality.

    They even refused to cooperate with the brothers without so much as trying to negotiate terms to their favour.

    In fairness, there was basically zero chance of that even happening.

    During the competition the Apple family is allowed to not only compete 4 against 2, they're allowed to bring in 5 extra helpers. Once they have 9 people to work the farm they can finally outproduce the Cider Squeezer, forcing the brother to lower their QA standard.

    4 against 2 (plus their giant cider-manufacturing machine). One of those four is a little filly, and another is very elderly. Also, if the addition of the other Mane Five was "cheating," all the FlimFlam Brothers had to say was "No, the deal didn't include them." Twilight asked, the Mayor passed the buck, and the FlimFlams chose to allow it. That's not cheating; that's negotiating.

    The apple family's cheating won them the day, in other words.

    Blatantly untrue.

    And while I'm on the subject, why is the Applefarm suddenly going out of business? Don't they still have a local monopoly on the apple supply?

    It was implied that the proceeds from the cider constituted a significant portion of Sweet Apple Acres' yearly income, sufficient that if that vanished, they couldn't maintain the farm. Farms and orchards often run on extremely thin profit margins, especially in a pre-industrial society and one without access to organized banking, loans, government subsidies, etc.

    Wouldn't the brothers have to buy all the apples they used to make cider from Sweet Apple Acres?

    Not necessarily. As one of them mentioned, "There are plenty of apples in Equestria." They could either buy their apples from SAA (at less than the cost of the cider, thus straining the Apples' finances even more) or have some shipped in from elsewhere. Sure, the price of cider might go up a little, but with the exclusive rights to the Ponyville market, they don't have to care.

    And what about all the other things they sell? Like the extremely popular Zap Apple Jam that made Filthy Rich so, well, filthy rich?
    How can they have trouble making ends meet, when their products are all selling like hotcakes?

    Again, farm. Extremely thin profit margins.

    It was also only blind luck that insured that the brothers where run out of town before the apple clan had left. If the first cask the Flimflam's had opened after the competition had been one of the ones they made before dropping their standards, they'd have been selling Cider hours before anyone noticed the bad half of the batch.

    This is true. However (Fridge Logic) the barrels of cider were stacked in the order they were produced. Thus, the FlimFlam's good barrels were on the bottom of the stack, and the bad ones were on top. It makes no sense to unstack a huge barrel pyramid and yank a barrel out from the bottom.

    So basically, there's only a problem because the Apple Clan are too dumb to run a business and they are only bailed out by cheating and blind luck.

    This is not.

    Do you hate Applejack for some reason? Because it seems like you bash on her a lot, with comments like this and calling her an "uneducated hillbilly."

    And the dirty cheating redneck then brags about not learning anything.
    Not any aesop the show can get away with saying out loud anyway...
    And somehow, I'm still one of the only ones around who doesn't like the Apple Clan.

    Hm . . . Applejack said "Ah didn't learn nothin'! Ah was right all along!" And you know what . . . she was. Quality and high standards beat cheap-ass mass production. The Apple family won because they refused to compromise the quality of their product, while the FlimFlam Brothers lost because they did compromise said quality. Who could have guessed?

    Lastly, the Cider song is definitely the best song so far. First song to beat Winter Wrap Up IMHO.

    That song was great, I agree with you there.

    In other news . . .

    • Derpy sighting!
    • It seems like there were more background stallions around. Looks like the animators are trying th even out the gender imbalance a bit.
    • Speaking of, isn't Caramel part of the Apple family? Why was he just schmoozing cider and ragging on the Apples?
    Slops
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    5 years ago
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    But the Flimflam brothers Cider was only made in low quality to keep up with the production rates of the Apple Clan + anypony who wanted to help. They wouldn't have had to lower the quality if the mayor hadn't changed the rules to help the apple clan half way through the competition.
    Thus the apple clan cheating indirectly won them the day when the brothers where chased out of town for making bad cider.
    And cheating is the only word that covers "changing the rules of the competition in the middle of the game specifically to aid one party in the competition", even if the brothers agreed to it (which they only did because they weren't paying attention to the mayor and Twi when they asked).
    If you must insist that this isn't an example of cheating, then explain how you would get away with this in any team based sport at an Olympic event and not be disqualified for cheating...

    And the Zap apples where stated to be the central part of Filthy Rich's success. How can the SAA make products like this, that have half the town queuing up to buy, have the local monopoly on one of the basic foods consumed in the local city, monopoly on cider, which has most of the town queuing up to buy and is shown to frequently sell out completely, and still only "just barely make ends meet" without being exceptionally bad business ponies?
    And on top of the proverbial gold mine that is SAA that she is running into the ground, there's all the price money she should be winning on a regular basis along with all those ribbons of hers.

    Also, yes, Applejack has been shown to regard basic addition as "too fancy to bother with". That would qualify for both ignorant and uneducated all at once. Even a 8th century peasant who's idea of an education is something that only happens to aristocracy, would still learn this level of math...
    And she lies on a regular basis, cheats in competitions (Both the running of the leaves and the cider making one) and will still complain loudly if anyone else does anything else to gain advantage in a competition, even if its not against the rules (Ironpony competition). And she's also perfectly willing to run out on others without a word, not just on her employer (Cheery Jubilee) but also her promise to her friends. In fact she ran out on them, specifically to dodge the promise, it wasn't even accidental.
    And all this is far more infuriating when AJ is then held up as being some how morally superior to far better ponies (how she bragged about not learning anything, all of Sister Hooves Social, the several times the whole town has gotten together to throw a celebration in her honour (incidentally, both counts where also undeserved as shown in their respective episodes) etc. etc.).
    How the hell is she still "the element of honesty"?

    Werewolf
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    Slops said:
    But the Flimflam brothers Cider <snip> brothers agreed to it (which they only did because they weren't paying attention to the mayor and Twi when they asked).

    The Mane Five were referred to as "honorary Apple family members," a legal gray area since it was never defined prior to the start of the contest.

    Do you know what happens when unforeseen situations arise in contests? The judge, possibly with input from the competitors, makes a ruling. That's exactly what happened here. You can say the Flimflam Bros "weren't paying attention," but that's on them, not on the Apples.

    If you must insist that this isn't an example of cheating, then explain how you would get away with this in any team based sport at an Olympic event and not be disqualified for cheating...

    If the judge or referee allowed it - which is exactly what happened here - it becomes their responsibility.

    And on top of the proverbial gold mine that is SAA that she is running into the ground, there's all the price money she should be winning on a regular basis along with all those ribbons of hers.

    Most rodeos and competitions of that sort don't offer a ton of prize money. The one in Canterlot was specifically a big, important rodeo that did. Also, note that AJ didn't win any blue ribbons there; she's top dog in the small-time rodeo circuit, not necessarily a big-time rodeo champ.

    And she lies on a regular basis,

    Not true. She lies on extremely rare occasions, and is shown to be terrible at it. She has flaws, just like everypony else; the same way Rarity can be the Spirit of Generosity and not constantly give everything away to everypony.

    cheats in competitions (Both the running of the leaves and the cider making one)

    Only cheated in RotL after Rainbow Dash started it, and that was the whole freaking moral of that episode. AJ did not cheat in this episode. At all.

    and will still complain loudly if anyone else does anything else to gain advantage in a competition, even if its not against the rules (Ironpony competition).

    So . . . you're saying that AJ asking the lawful judge to allow for unusual circumstances, then adhering to said judge's ruling, is cheating; while Dash using a power AJ does not have and has no chance of competing against, is just dandy? No.

    And she's also perfectly willing to run out on others without a word, not just on her employer (Cheery Jubilee)

    This is an assumption on your part.

    but also her promise to her friends. In fact she ran out on them, specifically to dodge the promise, it wasn't even accidental.

    She found a way to avoid said promise without lying. Again, that was the moral of the episode.

    the several times the whole town has gotten together to throw a celebration in her honour (incidentally, both counts where also undeserved as shown in their respective episodes)

    What? I guess she didn't save the town from a stampede in Applebuck Season, because that's what that celebration was for, and it happened after the event. As for the more recent one, it was a send-off/thank-you party for the town' rodeo champ, and AJ did her level best to be worthy of it, even to the point of taking another job for the sole purpose of donating her winnings to the town. How is this "undeserving?"

    Bottom line: You seem to be holding AJ to far different and higher standards than any of the others. You also seem to be going out of her way to attack her.

    I think that's enough for this thread; if you want to continue in the debate thread, I'll gladly join you.